Most Catholics, do not know that going to a fertility clinic, in order to get pregnant is a mortal sin. Likewise, for a male or female who has a procedure to curtail their reproductive gifts is guilty of mortal sin. Also, anyone using birth control pills. At my parish, there are about 12 peope who appear for confession on Saturday. 2200 attend Mass and it seems everyone goes to communion. There are several non Catholics who also go to Mass and partake of communion. The pastor knows they are not Catholic and has told those who voiced objections, to mind their own business.
In response to the last comment: I think Catholics (and Christians) need to focus less on archaic declarations of mortal sin and instead look at the true spirit of an action. I am reminded of the Catholic Church's rule dictating a weekly attendance at mass on Sundays. A devout Catholic will recognize that intentionally missing mass equates to mortal sin, no matter what circumstances prevailed nor taking into account the faith of that individual; yet a faithless person could attend simply to 'get it out of the way' and not face any threat of having committed a sin. In other words: LIGHTEN UP--do not judge lest ye be judged. For as the Bible says: we cannot know how the Lord thinks (thus we should be careful how black-and-white we see our world).
To the blog post: I find it sad that such an event would occur. I have always advocated adoption, and hopefully in the future we can see the Catholic Church once again embrace this idea and reopen many of its now shuttered orphanages. I think people have an interest, but the process of adoption intimidates many while others don't know where to go. I know that the Church will always offer help, but it wouldn't hurt for it to become a major player in finding homes for children who currently lack one.
Catholics do not make the rules, they follow them. Where does the bible tell us to chill out on attending Mass. A friend of mine once told me that his pastor told him it was ok to skip Mass on Sunday if he was going to be camping at the beach with his family. The nearest church was only 3 miles from the camp. Catholics have a duty to teach their children the entire faith less they grow up not knowing it and are not saved. God will hold those parents accountable. While a priest is held accountable for many many souls, and a bishop for hundreds of thousands, parents are held to account for their childrens faith. It is a very serious matter, not one as casual as some might think.
One more point about missing Mass. The Church does not teach that there are NO justifiable circumstances for missing Mass. If you are ill or caring for someone ill and have no one to fill in for you, missing Mass is not a sin. Carelessly attending Mass can be sinful as well, probably less seriously, but maybe even mortally.
I think we forget sometimes that the most important commandments are the first three about our relationship with God. We have a serious moral obligation to give God what is due Him. One hour a week is darn little to be commanded to offer. To treat that as trivial is a failure in faith. If we love God we should not want to just do the minimum. We should be lavish in our love. Read the lives of the saints.
Last time I read the Bible it said "remember to keep holy the sabbath". If anyone can translate that to equate without a shadow of a doubt into "attend mass" then by all means do and please publish your work. Here's a clue: you won't be able to, it's currently debated amongst theologians. So until proven otherwise, remember to respect a day of rest.
The point I made was touched on by Mary Ann, which is that our relationship with God matters most (granted, I disagree on the image of God as a stern man "commanding" us to go to mass). The Catholic Church tries to give guidelines on how to best achieve a strong relationship with God. But that is all they are: guidelines. Other than what the Church has added we have the commandments, which leave us very little to go by (yet enough to get by day-to-day most of the time).
Guidelines. I was never instructed in guidelines when it came to certain practices. If water was only a guidline for baptism, then beer or soda would be in use. Water and only water can be used for a valid baptism. Absolution mandates certain words are said. Guidelines are fine with optional Catholic practices such as saying the rosary once a day or twice a day.
In response to the guidelines via example of baptism: when delivering high risk pregnancies in a Catholic hospital the instruments are blessed in order to allow for the baby to be considered baptized should it die in birth. Sure the Catholic Church says what should be used, but very few things are absolute.
Remember, we are talking about faith here. In the end you want someone to have an active faith. If for you that means following a rigid Baltimore Catechism, then so be it. But I value more than a cold and rigid practice. I want to experience the faith and I want to share it with others. If a person has an active faith then they will respect God--end of story. In my opinion too much emphasis is put on "well to respect God you must do A, B, & C" and not enough emphasis on the whole idea of just getting to know God--experiencing God--developing a permanent relationship with God.
I know that some on here might want to think otherwise, but I am a practicing Catholic with a thorough understanding of Catholic theology. I don't post comments here to be the 'odd man out' but try and convey the message that we need to be willing to let people experience faith before throwing a book at them and yelling, "there, now you mustn't eat meat on Fridays in Lent, you must go to mass on the Assumption, and if you use a condom during sex you can say goodbye to Heaven." I don't pretend to know how God thinks, but I do know that I would much rather turn people towards God than to turn them away with a Phariseeical approach.
I'm curious, W, why you think using the Baltimore Catechism equates to being a Pharisee. The Bible and the Catechisms (Baltimore, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Fr. hardon's Catechism, the Didache, etc.) are like the user's manual that comes with your car. If you follow the manual and put gas in the gas tank and oil in the oil tank the car runs right. If you decide to throw out the manual because it's "too rigid" and put honey in the gas tank and maple syrup in the oil tank you won't get very far.
I'm a cradle Catholic too and I thank God for the Church teachings that protect me from making a whole range of sins/mistakes. The Pill is deadly to women's health. A Catholic who "follows the rules" of Humanae Vitae doesn't have to learn the hard way about the connection between artificial hormones and breast cancer. No one who follows church teaching on chastity has to worry about STDs and AIDS.
As for blessing instruments in the hospital: where did you get that? I've had surgery at a Catholic hospital and it's news to me. I suppose there's nothing wrong with blessing the tools of your trade whatever it is, but I do not think that is common practice and has nothing to do with baptism.
I'm not sure what your definition of faith is. Jesus was very clear that "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." That's the minimum as he shows us in the parable of the rich young man who had kept the commandments but couldn't give up his wealth to follow Jesus. Faith isn't a feeling. It's a verb. We show our faith by our actions: our obedience to God, our love of neighbor, etc. To dismiss someone as "cold and rigid" because they use the catechism makes as much sense as firing your mechanic because he expects you to follow the auto manual. Following the rules of God articulated through His voice on earth, the Church, is the most direct route to heaven.
Thank you, Loving Father, for our Holy Mother Church.
W, if actually a Catholic, knows very little of the faith. Blessing medical instruments is in no way related to Baptism. I know how it works when a baby is delivered still-born. A baptism is still performed, if the parents allow it. God speaks loud and clear via His church and through the authentic teachings of the Faith and Tradition. The Baltimore catechism is just a guide, it is not an infallible document. You sound like you have familiarity with protestantism, and while your comments are very much at home with most protestants, they are in fact considered either heresy and mortal sins in the Catholic church. pick and chose Catholics are called cafeteria Catholics, but in reality they have become Protestants not realizing it. Cafeteria Catholics are bishops, canon lawyers, nuns, deacons and many pew sitters. Catholicism is not a debating society, nor a democracy.
Anonymous- you make my point exactly. Jesus said about the stoning of the prostitute that the person without sin should cast the first stone. You call my statements heresy and tell me that I have committed mortal when in fact you have lost the broader picture: it's about faith in God. Granted, if you are sinless, then I will accept your accusations of having committed mortal sin. But until otherwise I cannot agree with your assertions on declaring sin and heresy. Again I remind you: God said in the Bible that we cannot know his ways of thinking, and in that I suggest that declaring my words a sin has no base. As far as my faith, please don't call it into question. I have studied the Bible and Catholic theology and I attend mass weekly. I have discussed my thoughts with priests and deacons before and all seem to agree in that ultimately we want people to have faith in God.
Mary Ann- you make good points. I don't quite see my statements as the level that you have taken them. I was more going along the lines of recruiting to the church. If I want to convince a person to drive a car, I would not be helping my cause by throwing them a manual and lecturing them on how to best care for it. Instead, if I had them drive the car and get used to it with a few simple understandings (fill it with gas, watch oil, etc.) they could then grow accustomed to the car and want to keep up on it. I see the ten commandments as the minimum as to what a person committed to God would do simply by nature of faith. That doesn't mean a struggle won't exist to fully comply, but I'm not about to ridicule someone who has a faith and has the typical struggle to stay in line with it.
Oh and I forgot: when delivering still births at a Catholic hospital it certainly has been put into practice that the instruments be blessed as a way of immediate Baptism. Granted, anyone can perform a Baptism in times of emergency so I'm guessing the Church has overlooked that for that reason.
A mortal sin, as distinct from a venial sin, must meet all of the following conditions:
1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter; 2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (though nobody is deemed to be ignorant of the moral law, embedded into the consciences of every human being); 3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.
This stipulation of mortal sin, written by a priest, makes it difficult to black-or-white declare someone as having committed such a sin.
W- Let me assure you, your information on baptism is wrong. I am not questioning your motives, just telling you a baby delivered stillborn with blessed instruments in not baptized. Sacraments require Form, Matter and Intent to be valid. Water must be poured over the head of the person with the words of Baptism. Intent is met by performing the act. As to missing Mass, it is a mortal sin, unless there are serious reasons for not attending. I am not accusing you of formal heresy. I submit you are just not informed on the dogmas and canons of the church. You are making sweeping statments about practices you think are acceptable in the church, and I am telling you, your information is incorrect. I ask you not to preach about the faith to others unless you have done your homework and can support what you are saying with respect to dogmas and canons from church sources. As to casting the first stone, there is no sin in correcting error. In fact, it is a sin to allow one to propogate known error and not correct them. You can reference my remarks on Baptism and you will find them correct.
Anonymous- I won't disagree with your intentions, but I see us as belonging to two different schools of thought which will not easily agree on the surface. I have been taught by two different religious orders, one which offered a classical catholic teaching and the other which promoted a more liberal view on Catholicism. I very much appreciated the latter because it allowed me to learn to pray and to develop my relationship with God. The former did not. Instead the former focused on rules and laws and established the Church as a hierarchy, with a surprisingly low focus on prayer and that all-important relationship with the Almighty. If my opinions on here seem liberal, that's why, because it truly bothers me to see my colleagues from the former out in the world with an apparent lack of religion. That's why I call that approach to learning Catholicism the phariseeical approach, since the burden of bureaucracy and lacking focus on the important aspects of our faith did them a major disadvantage.
As far as the Baptism comments- I didn't make up what I said, nor did I pull it from a Protestant church. Let's just suffice it to say that a Catholic hospital near me used blessed instruments on still births apparently for the reason of emergency Baptism. I will admit that I don't know the allowable dispensations. But given a stillbirth's death in utero, I'd imagine it's truly a non-issue since it's soul would have already ascended.
To everyone, it's been real. I appreciate your comments in response to mine. As much as we might have clashed, it's nice to know that people still care about our religion. And anonymous- get a darn user name!
W- your baptism remark is confusing. First of all, if a stillborn baby is to be baptized, the parents would be the ones to authorize that. I assume those doing the baptism would at least know the protocol. The church makes no determination as to when a soul leaves the body in the case of a stillborn. Catholics I know, who had a stillborn baby, baptized the baby. The Catholic church is indeed a hierarchy. The Pope is the head of the church on earth, followed by bishops and priests. Bishops are the spiritual leaders for Catholics on earth, regardless if they are holy or very immoral. There is no liberal or conservative distinction in being a faithful Catholic. Those who try to reinvent the faith are properly called heretics or dissenters. Even those who self identify as conservative can be heretics or dissenters. One example is CMRI, which teaches the last valid pope is Pius XII. There is no shortage of folks trying to recast the church and HER teachings to conform to what THEY think is truth. The reason there are thousands of unique protestant assemblies is because they all see things a bit different. The sheer number of so many different assemblies is glaring proof they are all confused and preaching error. They may be nice people, and entirely sincere, but they are separated from the truth, because it resides in the Catholic church, and whatever the church teaches on morals and faith is what Catholics must obey.
Most Catholics, do not know that going to a fertility clinic, in order to get pregnant is a mortal sin. Likewise, for a male or female who has a procedure to curtail their reproductive gifts
ReplyDeleteis guilty of mortal sin. Also, anyone using birth control pills. At my parish, there are about 12 peope who appear for confession on Saturday. 2200 attend Mass and it seems everyone goes to communion.
There are several non Catholics who also go to Mass and partake of communion. The pastor knows they are not Catholic and has told those who voiced objections, to mind their own business.
In response to the last comment: I think Catholics (and Christians) need to focus less on archaic declarations of mortal sin and instead look at the true spirit of an action. I am reminded of the Catholic Church's rule dictating a weekly attendance at mass on Sundays. A devout Catholic will recognize that intentionally missing mass equates to mortal sin, no matter what circumstances prevailed nor taking into account the faith of that individual; yet a faithless person could attend simply to 'get it out of the way' and not face any threat of having committed a sin. In other words: LIGHTEN UP--do not judge lest ye be judged. For as the Bible says: we cannot know how the Lord thinks (thus we should be careful how black-and-white we see our world).
ReplyDeleteTo the blog post: I find it sad that such an event would occur. I have always advocated adoption, and hopefully in the future we can see the Catholic Church once again embrace this idea and reopen many of its now shuttered orphanages. I think people have an interest, but the process of adoption intimidates many while others don't know where to go. I know that the Church will always offer help, but it wouldn't hurt for it to become a major player in finding homes for children who currently lack one.
-W
http://bill84121.blogspot.com
Catholics do not make the rules, they follow them. Where does the bible tell us to chill out on attending Mass. A friend of mine
ReplyDeleteonce told me that his pastor told him it was ok to skip Mass on Sunday if he was going to be camping at the beach with his
family. The nearest church was only 3 miles from the camp. Catholics have a duty to teach their children the entire faith
less they grow up not knowing it and are not saved. God will hold those parents accountable. While a priest is held accountable for many many souls, and a bishop for hundreds of thousands, parents are held to account for their childrens faith. It is a very serious matter, not one as casual as some might think.
One more point about missing Mass. The Church does not teach that there are NO justifiable circumstances for missing Mass. If you are ill or caring for someone ill and have no one to fill in for you, missing Mass is not a sin. Carelessly attending Mass can be sinful as well, probably less seriously, but maybe even mortally.
ReplyDeleteI think we forget sometimes that the most important commandments are the first three about our relationship with God. We have a serious moral obligation to give God what is due Him. One hour a week is darn little to be commanded to offer. To treat that as trivial is a failure in faith. If we love God we should not want to just do the minimum. We should be lavish in our love. Read the lives of the saints.
Last time I read the Bible it said "remember to keep holy the sabbath". If anyone can translate that to equate without a shadow of a doubt into "attend mass" then by all means do and please publish your work. Here's a clue: you won't be able to, it's currently debated amongst theologians. So until proven otherwise, remember to respect a day of rest.
ReplyDeleteThe point I made was touched on by Mary Ann, which is that our relationship with God matters most (granted, I disagree on the image of God as a stern man "commanding" us to go to mass). The Catholic Church tries to give guidelines on how to best achieve a strong relationship with God. But that is all they are: guidelines. Other than what the Church has added we have the commandments, which leave us very little to go by (yet enough to get by day-to-day most of the time).
-W
http://bill84121.blogspot.com
Guidelines. I was never instructed in guidelines when it came to certain practices. If water was only a guidline for baptism, then beer or soda would be in use. Water and only water can be used for a valid baptism. Absolution mandates certain words are said.
ReplyDeleteGuidelines are fine with optional Catholic practices such as saying the rosary once a day or twice a day.
In response to the guidelines via example of baptism: when delivering high risk pregnancies in a Catholic hospital the instruments are blessed in order to allow for the baby to be considered baptized should it die in birth. Sure the Catholic Church says what should be used, but very few things are absolute.
ReplyDeleteRemember, we are talking about faith here. In the end you want someone to have an active faith. If for you that means following a rigid Baltimore Catechism, then so be it. But I value more than a cold and rigid practice. I want to experience the faith and I want to share it with others. If a person has an active faith then they will respect God--end of story. In my opinion too much emphasis is put on "well to respect God you must do A, B, & C" and not enough emphasis on the whole idea of just getting to know God--experiencing God--developing a permanent relationship with God.
I know that some on here might want to think otherwise, but I am a practicing Catholic with a thorough understanding of Catholic theology. I don't post comments here to be the 'odd man out' but try and convey the message that we need to be willing to let people experience faith before throwing a book at them and yelling, "there, now you mustn't eat meat on Fridays in Lent, you must go to mass on the Assumption, and if you use a condom during sex you can say goodbye to Heaven." I don't pretend to know how God thinks, but I do know that I would much rather turn people towards God than to turn them away with a Phariseeical approach.
I'm curious, W, why you think using the Baltimore Catechism equates to being a Pharisee. The Bible and the Catechisms (Baltimore, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Fr. hardon's Catechism, the Didache, etc.) are like the user's manual that comes with your car. If you follow the manual and put gas in the gas tank and oil in the oil tank the car runs right. If you decide to throw out the manual because it's "too rigid" and put honey in the gas tank and maple syrup in the oil tank you won't get very far.
ReplyDeleteI'm a cradle Catholic too and I thank God for the Church teachings that protect me from making a whole range of sins/mistakes. The Pill is deadly to women's health. A Catholic who "follows the rules" of Humanae Vitae doesn't have to learn the hard way about the connection between artificial hormones and breast cancer. No one who follows church teaching on chastity has to worry about STDs and AIDS.
As for blessing instruments in the hospital: where did you get that? I've had surgery at a Catholic hospital and it's news to me. I suppose there's nothing wrong with blessing the tools of your trade whatever it is, but I do not think that is common practice and has nothing to do with baptism.
I'm not sure what your definition of faith is. Jesus was very clear that "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." That's the minimum as he shows us in the parable of the rich young man who had kept the commandments but couldn't give up his wealth to follow Jesus. Faith isn't a feeling. It's a verb. We show our faith by our actions: our obedience to God, our love of neighbor, etc. To dismiss someone as "cold and rigid" because they use the catechism makes as much sense as firing your mechanic because he expects you to follow the auto manual. Following the rules of God articulated through His voice on earth, the Church, is the most direct route to heaven.
Thank you, Loving Father, for our Holy Mother Church.
W, if actually a Catholic, knows very little of the faith. Blessing medical instruments is in no way related to Baptism. I know how it works when a baby is delivered still-born. A baptism is still performed, if the parents allow it.
ReplyDeleteGod speaks loud and clear via His church and through the authentic teachings of the Faith and Tradition. The Baltimore catechism is just a guide, it is not an infallible document.
You sound like you have familiarity with protestantism, and while your comments are very
much at home with most protestants, they are in fact
considered either heresy and mortal sins in the Catholic church.
pick and chose Catholics are called cafeteria Catholics, but in reality they have become Protestants not realizing it.
Cafeteria Catholics are bishops, canon lawyers, nuns, deacons and many pew sitters.
Catholicism is not a debating society, nor a democracy.
Anonymous- you make my point exactly. Jesus said about the stoning of the prostitute that the person without sin should cast the first stone. You call my statements heresy and tell me that I have committed mortal when in fact you have lost the broader picture: it's about faith in God. Granted, if you are sinless, then I will accept your accusations of having committed mortal sin. But until otherwise I cannot agree with your assertions on declaring sin and heresy. Again I remind you: God said in the Bible that we cannot know his ways of thinking, and in that I suggest that declaring my words a sin has no base. As far as my faith, please don't call it into question. I have studied the Bible and Catholic theology and I attend mass weekly. I have discussed my thoughts with priests and deacons before and all seem to agree in that ultimately we want people to have faith in God.
ReplyDeleteMary Ann- you make good points. I don't quite see my statements as the level that you have taken them. I was more going along the lines of recruiting to the church. If I want to convince a person to drive a car, I would not be helping my cause by throwing them a manual and lecturing them on how to best care for it. Instead, if I had them drive the car and get used to it with a few simple understandings (fill it with gas, watch oil, etc.) they could then grow accustomed to the car and want to keep up on it. I see the ten commandments as the minimum as to what a person committed to God would do simply by nature of faith. That doesn't mean a struggle won't exist to fully comply, but I'm not about to ridicule someone who has a faith and has the typical struggle to stay in line with it.
-W
http://bill84121.blogspot.com
Oh and I forgot: when delivering still births at a Catholic hospital it certainly has been put into practice that the instruments be blessed as a way of immediate Baptism. Granted, anyone can perform a Baptism in times of emergency so I'm guessing the Church has overlooked that for that reason.
ReplyDelete-W
http://bill84121.blogspot.com
I thought this might help, anonymous:
ReplyDeleteA mortal sin, as distinct from a venial sin, must meet all of the following conditions:
1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter;
2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (though nobody is deemed to be ignorant of the moral law, embedded into the consciences of every human being);
3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.
This stipulation of mortal sin, written by a priest, makes it difficult to black-or-white declare someone as having committed such a sin.
W- Let me assure you, your information on baptism is wrong. I am not questioning your motives, just telling you a baby delivered stillborn with blessed instruments in not baptized. Sacraments require Form, Matter and Intent to be valid. Water must be poured over the head of the person with the words of Baptism. Intent is met by performing the act.
ReplyDeleteAs to missing Mass, it is a mortal sin, unless there are serious reasons for not attending.
I am not accusing you of formal
heresy. I submit you are just not informed on the dogmas and canons of the church. You are making sweeping statments about practices you think are acceptable in the church, and I am telling you, your information is incorrect. I ask you not to preach about the faith to others unless you have done your homework and can support what you are saying with respect to dogmas and canons from church sources. As to casting the first stone, there is no sin in correcting error. In fact, it is a sin to allow one to propogate known error and not correct them. You can reference my remarks on Baptism and you will find them correct.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous- I won't disagree with your intentions, but I see us as belonging to two different schools of thought which will not easily agree on the surface. I have been taught by two different religious orders, one which offered a classical catholic teaching and the other which promoted a more liberal view on Catholicism. I very much appreciated the latter because it allowed me to learn to pray and to develop my relationship with God. The former did not. Instead the former focused on rules and laws and established the Church as a hierarchy, with a surprisingly low focus on prayer and that all-important relationship with the Almighty. If my opinions on here seem liberal, that's why, because it truly bothers me to see my colleagues from the former out in the world with an apparent lack of religion. That's why I call that approach to learning Catholicism the phariseeical approach, since the burden of bureaucracy and lacking focus on the important aspects of our faith did them a major disadvantage.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Baptism comments- I didn't make up what I said, nor did I pull it from a Protestant church. Let's just suffice it to say that a Catholic hospital near me used blessed instruments on still births apparently for the reason of emergency Baptism. I will admit that I don't know the allowable dispensations. But given a stillbirth's death in utero, I'd imagine it's truly a non-issue since it's soul would have already ascended.
To everyone, it's been real. I appreciate your comments in response to mine. As much as we might have clashed, it's nice to know that people still care about our religion. And anonymous- get a darn user name!
-W
http://bill84121.blogspot.com
W- your baptism remark is confusing. First of all, if a stillborn baby is to be baptized, the parents would be the ones to authorize that. I assume those doing the baptism would at least know the protocol. The church makes no determination as to when a soul leaves the body in the case of a stillborn. Catholics I know, who had a stillborn baby,
ReplyDeletebaptized the baby. The Catholic church is indeed a hierarchy.
The Pope is the head of the church on earth, followed by bishops and priests. Bishops are the spiritual leaders for Catholics on earth, regardless if they are holy or very immoral. There is no liberal or conservative distinction in being a faithful Catholic. Those who try to reinvent the faith are properly called heretics or dissenters. Even those who self identify as conservative can be heretics or dissenters. One example is CMRI, which teaches the last valid pope is Pius XII. There is no shortage of folks trying to recast the church and HER teachings to conform to what THEY think is truth. The reason there are thousands of unique protestant assemblies is because they all see things a bit different. The sheer number of so many different assemblies is glaring proof they are all confused and preaching error. They may be nice people, and entirely sincere, but they are separated from the truth, because it resides in the Catholic church, and whatever the church teaches on morals and faith is what Catholics must obey.