I'm a big fan of Dymphna's blog, especially her random thoughts posts. This item caught my eye recently:
A priest posted a photo of his 90 year old mother and asked for prayers because she passed away. One person complained that the mother was wearing pants and chastised the loving son for showing an immodest photo. My brothers, if you experience temptation looking at a 90 year old woman I suggest that you step away from the Internet, possibly forever for any reason other than work, and get yourself to the nearest priest for spiritual guidance because ....something aint right.
I didn't see the picture, but I doubt a 90 year old woman was wearing skin tight pants with a plunging neckline top.
This is a prime example of what one of my sisters calls majoring in the minors and minoring in the majors. Really, folks, modesty can be an issue whether a woman is wearing a dress or slacks. Even a long dress with a high neckline can be immodest. Many of the popular fashions, particularly the "wet look," leave nothing to the imagination. Clingy fabrics can also be a problem.
And men can be immodest too. I used to avert my eyes at the community pool from the guys in speedos. No temptation, just the yuck response.
I almost always wear dresses or skirts to Mass, but I often wear pants at home, especially if I'm gardening, housecleaning, mucking out the chicken coop or checking on the bees. Women wearing pants is not a moral issue unless they are too tight. So please get a life instead of looking for things to make a fuss over.
Modesty is about more than dress. It refers to the entire character of a person. A modest person practices humility and doesn't put on airs or try to become the center of attention. To be described as a "modest person" is a real compliment. May we all strive to be that "modest person."
Thank you, Mary Ann, for a rational, common-sense post on this issue. I attend a TLM parish where pants are scorned at, yet some attire, especially on the younger women wearing the "wet look," leaves not much to the imagination. I recently attended two TLM weddings where the bridesmaid dresses were highly inappropriate for this very reason, and no one saw a problem. Some of the younger men could also take a lesson and jettison their too-tight slacks. I, like you, always wear dresses or skirts to church, but I am not about to much around in my garden or cleaning up my dog's poops in the yard wearing a skirt. And I'm not getting my skirt caught in the vacuum cleaner. Not happening!
ReplyDeleteModesty is secondary. Blending of the sexes is primary. Letter from me to a friend follows.
ReplyDeleteThis is in response to the discussion as to whether women should wear pants. I felt that the tone of your comment, “yes, I wear pants” sounded a little snarky, but maybe I misinterpreted it. In my opinion, feminism, more than anything else, has destroyed this Country. It has resulted in the total destruction of the family, resulted in abortion so women could have no barriers to employment, has resulted in a blending of the sexes in that a lot of women today look like/and are indistinguishable from men with their like dress and cropped hair. To me, distinguishing the sexes is more important than modesty for wearing dresses, not that I mean to downplay the modesty aspect. If you study the rise of feminism, you will find that the first thing women wanted to do was to wear pants-“a man isn’t going to tell me how to dress”. This was revolutionary. Please read up on Katharine Hepburn. She was the pioneer of women’s liberation and was proud to flaunt her wearing of pants. It was frowned on then because it was expected that there should be a distinction between how women and men dress which, throughout history in most cultures, has been. But, this isn’t the case in today’s enlightened egalitarian society.
It amazes me that people cannot see the connection between the androgynous look and the rise of homosexuality/lesbianism and transgenderism. But, in today’s world, women push the “easy button”. They want to be comfortable. From a man’s perspective, there is nothing as feminine as a women in a modest dress or modest blouse and skirt. Doesn’t’ Hillary Clinton look just wonderful-perfect example of today’s half man, half woman? She is the most radical of the feminists. Just why you think she never wears dresses anymore. I am not in the camp that women have to dress like the women in “Little House on the Prairie”. The woman that responded to you agreeing that women can wear pants said to be careful to cover up your behind/caboose. I am curious as to how she would do that in pants. Lastly, I am not sure how a woman can consider herself to be a traditionalist and wear pants. That doesn’t compute. Wearing a dress is one way of being a witness to Traditional Catholicism as you will be in the minority 1% of women who still wear dresses. I can’t tell you how many times my wife has been asked why she always wears dresses and she responds that that is the dress code of our Church, and then goes on to explain further. I probably will not make any inroads with you because feminism has infected most everyone in our society, but I thought I would give it my best shot.
I certainly didn't mean to be "snarky;" I was just stating a fact. And I also have "cropped hair" and have worn it that way most of my life. Is it really prudent and charitable to judge people by the fact they have short hair or wear pants? I met an angry lesbian at the Spring of Life in Buffalo in 1992. My mom thought she was a man, but I knew she wasn't. It takes more than pants and short hair to make a man. We were, in fact, both wearing slacks and had short hair. I had no intention of being picked up and carried off by police with a dress rising up and flying in the breeze. I asked her why a pretty young gal like her wanted to look like a guy. She came back with the fact that I had short hair and was wearing pants too. I laughed and said, "You know there's a difference." We had a cordial conversation until her "friends" told her to stop talking to me. I agree with your comments about feminism, but it's their philosophy, not what they wear that's the problem.
ReplyDeleteDear Mary, that was a letter to a friend, not you, after a discussion on pants, Sorry. Please see my introduction.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I read too quickly, especially if a comment is long. Mea culpa.
ReplyDeleteVietnamese ladies wear pants. I think pants are more modest, if nicely tailored, and they are definitely safer, more protective of women from predators.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, clothing customs can change without the first or the last being necessarily immodest. From men wearing robes, to leggings (for lack of a better term), to breeches with knickers, to modern dress pants and jeans, and women wearing robes, dresses of various styles, and more recently, yes, pants, any of these could be immodest. Moreover, what men may wear could at times resemble what women wear, and vice versa, and not just in modern times. In ancient times, clothing for men and women often enough looked pretty similar, though no doubt still retaining some differences.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Mary Ann.
ReplyDeleteMary Ann,
ReplyDeleteI just read your blog post "Some people major in the minors over modesty!"
A few years ago, a woman stopped my daughter and me after Mass. She told my daughter that her pants were immodest and that she should wear a longer shirt. Also, she said that she and her husband moved to the pew behind us so that the young man a couple rows back would not have a view of my daughter. (I wondered whether it was really so that her husband could get a better look...)
This is a couple that is very trad (no slur intended - I love the old school Mass), but these are the kind of people that give traditionalists a bad name - very self-righteous. In any case, over the years, only on rare occasions are they on time for Mass. Always coming in well after it has started, sometimes after the Gospel. They have lived here for years and it is always so.
So, who is showing more disrespect (to the priest and to the holy Sacrifice of the Mass) - My daughter or them?
Thank you for your blog.
I had a similar experience in Sanford, FL when I visited my blog partner Susan. We went to Sunday Mass. I was wearing a skirt, but Susan was wearing slacks because she didn't own a dress and was only wearing pants then. Two snotty little teenagers were snickering and pointing at Susan. If she were a woman of less faith, she might never have returned. This was her first experience in years of attending the TLM and she only went because I wanted to go. She also did not own a veil and wasn't wearing one. All I could think was, "What were the parents teaching these girls about charity?" Susan fell in love with the TLM because of the Holy Spirit. I did not urge her to go and originally she planned to go to the Novus Ordo parish down the street. Providentially, she saw some friends outside the church and decided to stay. Fortunately, the attitude of the snotty little teenagers who did nothing to welcome strangers did not prevent Susan from embracing the TLM with fervor. She often thanks me for introducing her to the TLM. I laugh and say, "It wasn't me; it was the Holy Spirit."
ReplyDeleteI completely agree that there are traditionalists who are a stumbling block to those who might go to the TLM except for the self-righteous judgments and unfriendliness of some who attend. Fortunately, I have met few of those at our chapel.
"she only went because I wanted to go....She often thanks me for introducing her to the TLM. I laugh and say, "It wasn't me; it was the Holy Spirit." So it's okay for Susan to please you and offend God. The dress code is set in our chapel so as not to offend God. It's His requirement that women should worship with their heads covered. It's in the Bible and my understanding is that the Catholic requirement was never revoked but women just stopped doing it. I think Dymphna's blog post misses the point and I was very surprised. Was anyone filled with lust by the men wearing dresses at St. Patrick's cathedral? Since no-one was filled with lust did that make their attire not an offense to God? If the priest posted a picture of a 90 year old man in a dress and asked for prayers for him, would you not all be up in arms and sending him emails? Because women have been wearing pants in our society for 60 years, does that make it no longer an offense to God? I graduated from Catholic High School in 1978 and our uniforms did not include pants although pants (not jeans) were allowed on casual dress day though it was not stressed to me what the reason was for that. The dress code in our chapel is posted on the door to the chapel for both men and women (similar to a restaurant). If a women enters without a veil, the coordinator will take her a veil, but another woman whose sister is a nun has also taken on that duty. I'm glad it's not my responsibility--(I know the snarky comments I have received from the women in my family, my friends and co-workers about my wearing dresses exclusively (since sodomite marriage passed in my state in 2012); not one has followed my example). Women have also worn pants and I'm not sure who speaks to them. Some have come two or three times in pants, but after that didn't return. I feel for the people who have to enforce the code. In the novus ordo/FSSP, not sure who is enforcing the dress code or if there even is one -- in that case as Saul Alinsky will tell you snickering/ridicule is a way to get your point across and see that the pants wearing uncovered brazen females don't feel welcome and then get all the other women to follow their bad example and take over as happened in the novus ordo. It seems to me that if a priest is telling women to wear dresses, then he shouldn't send out a picture of a woman wearing pants and ask for prayers as if she is going to heaven -- if it's okay for her, why not for them? It seems strange that according to your morals you can't wear pants until you're post menopausal --then like Cher at 40 you can prance around for the entire navy.
ReplyDeletePeople think modesty is the main objection to women wearing pants (but men can wear immodest pants also). However, I think the main thing in our society is to distinguish men from women. The man wears the pants. On the bathroom doors, the woman stick figure has a skirt. It is the same for hair: long hair = woman. Short hair = man. Practically the only way to fight against men wearing long hair was to ridicule them which was done against the hippies. Or to call them girlie. However, how many women wear their hair short like a man's? Mia Farrow was shocking in the 1960s, but now many women have their hair that short. Do you think men know that Pelosi's rear end is an 80 year old's or Jill Biden's fish net stockings are a 70 year olds? You may say close up and this and that, but just as a distinguishing feature many of the lines have been erased/blurred and in most cases it is the woman who is offending and has a million excuses why she's not going to stop/give up her freedom/convenience/ease like you all do. Perhaps you should try doing what you are criticizing these women for doing -- encouraging other women to dress in a manner pleasing to God. If the way men dress in St. Patrick's Cathedral is your business, then the way women dress in your church is your business.
ReplyDeleteMary Ann,
ReplyDeleteAnd I suppose all of the men wearing those awful robes during Mass are sinning for not "wearing the pants"!
Since you wear the pants, go in the men's bathroom and don't complain when the men come into the women's bathroom. You want to segregate the sexes when YOU choose. You want to go to the mass YOU choose (SUSAN "fell in love" (emotion) w/this or that). She was going somewhere else and that was HER choice. From the neck down, most likely no-one could tell the age of the woman in the photograph. From the rear, men and women look the same. You have heard the expression the same as I have: SHE wears the pants in that house. That is our culture and that is what we are rebelling against. Tom-boys versus ladylike and modest. In the orthodox Jewish and Muslim world men enforce this dress code in their homes (One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? 1 Tim 3:4-5) and in the community: "Unknown men dressed like law enforcement officials had shot Louiza and her friend with paintball guns for not observing a compulsory Islamic dress code, in other words, for wearing clothes deemed to be revealing and not keeping their hair covered."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.hrw.org/report/2011/03/10/you-dress-according-their-rules/enforcement-islamic-dress-code-women-chechnya
In the orthodox community in New York I have seen videos of Jewish men shouting at women who walk through their neighborhoods in pants.
https://jewinthecity.com/2009/06/why-dont-orthodox-jewish-women-wear-pants/
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/nyregion/shadowy-squads-enforce-modesty-in-hasidic-brooklyn.html
https://nypost.com/2012/07/22/fury-at-hasidic-biz-dress-codes/
https://www.wired.com/2009/12/nyc-bike-lane-brouhaha/
In Israel, women ride in the back of the bus:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230824-israeli-women-protest-gender-segregation-on-public-transport
In our country a woman had to go to court to be allowed to work out in a skirt:
https://nypost.com/2017/09/05/judge-allows-orthodox-woman-to-work-out-in-skirt-at-gym/
Here is the attitude of western women:
It’s possible that these men will remember me and know to avoid the uppity girl who yells at them when they’re just trying to pay her a compliment.
https://heebmagazine.com/hasidic-street-harassment/37735
"I go to this cute little drive through coffee place by my house often and the baristas that work there are drop dead gorgeous and very sweet. One of them dresses a little on the revealing side and I’m pretty sure she has implants but she looks amazing and I’m ENVIOUS of her. She mostly just wears like a little tank top and some shorts...no big deal.
"So today I’m in line and this Hasidic Jewish man with his little hat and curly side burns and religious outfit was at the window and was on a scooter. I noticed he seemed to be arguing with her and I got nosy and rolled down my window so I could hear him and he was pointing at her and yelling “LOOK AT YOU! LOOK AT THE WAY YOU ARE DRESSED” and I was instantly filled with rage. I laid on my horn and got up on his ass with my car and startled him. He moved up but then stopped to turn around and glare at me. I screamed, “GET THE F*** OUT OF HERE!” "F*** religious men and their barbaric belief system."
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/nga38p/today_i_witnessed_a_hasidic_jewish_man_harassing/
In our culture: Who's Your Daddy? is an alternate capitalization of "Who's your daddy?", a phrase expressing dominance, especially of a sexual nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_your_daddy%3F
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." Romans 8 - Jesus taught us to pray: "Our Father"
Rigid, judgmental, uncharitable, and arrogant! That's what gives traditionalists a bad reputation. I refuse to be a stumbling block to others over something that is not a moral issue.
ReplyDeleteWhen we are at Mass, we should be worshiping the Lord Jesus above all else. We should be focused on what's happening at the altar. It is uncharitable, to say the least, for people to worry about what other people are wearing. That is between them and God, unless what they're wearing is so outrageous and then the priest should be told after Mass. It's not our place to sit in judgment upon these people. God may be calling them into the Latin Mass and they may not be aware of the issues of modesty.
ReplyDeleteThere are a number of private prophecies from the saints that indicate that the beginning of the chastisement occurs when women wear men's clothes and men wear women's clothes. I do think it's important that the sexes wear obviously different clothes to avoid the androgynous and lifestyle genderbending that's going on now.
ReplyDeleteI'm not posting any more dissertations. I don't have time to read them. If you have that much to say, start your own blog.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for this! When I finished chemo, my oncologist told me that, due to an adverse reaction to some of the meds, my hair would probably never grow back fully. I accepted this and, since I was so thankful that my cancer was now in remission, I never gave it another thought. I now have very short hair and I am perfectly happy with it. I wear a chapel veil to Mass (I attend a NO Mass since there is no TLM in my area) and I have never had any unkind comments. I am so grateful to God for every day I am here, and I certainly will not let any uncharitable or unkind people keep me from glorifying Him in all ways.
ReplyDeleteI'm laughing today. I just ordered a book from Sophia Press, the publisher of Benedictus and many Traditional Catholic books. Its name is Worthy of Wearing by Nicole Caruso, a former fashion consultant. It shows all kinds of clothing that make women feel beautiful --- including (horrors) pants. I just looked at the photos which run the gamut. I wouldn't wear a short skirt or jeans with rips that are so fashionable among the young. That being said, I would not accuse the wearers of undermining the faith. Nicole worked for awhile with Verily, a fashion magazine that was the first "to feature women of all sizes as models, and the magazine pioneered the movement to ditch Photoshop. Our team wanted to show women what was missing in most media: the truth that we are beautiful and worthy because of who we are and Who made us, not because of how we dress or what we own." Frankly, fashion has never been important to me. I wear almost no makeup and never did. I cut my hair short because then I didn't have to fuss with curlers and curling irons. It's interesting to see the things that people get worked up about. Too bad more aren't worked up about the real abominations in God's sight starting with the murder of the unborn. I was always thrilled to see the prayer warriors at the abortuaries where I sidewalked counseled. I never noticed what they wore, just the rosaries in their hands. Praised be Jesus Christ!
ReplyDeleteHere's the thing that rarely gets talked about when the subject of modesty comes up. Simply put:
ReplyDeleteCatholics are supposed to be "in the world, but not of it."
Pants and shorts, etc on women is a fashion of the world, intended to destroy femininity.
So any Catholic who claims their is no problem with women wearing these fashions of the world is full of b.s.
I know that 'Catholic' women who love to wear pants, shorts, etc. will not be convinced by this argument or by anything that is proclaimed by God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, or the Church regardless. It will be very interesting how that all works out for them at their particular judgment.
Where did Mary proclaim that pants were immodest? Your post once again illustrates that some people want to major in the minors while judging others who hold a different opinion. Perhaps you should worry about your own particular judgment instead of those who hold opinions different from your own.
ReplyDeleteFolks need to remember everyone is in the process of becoming a Saint. What was it that converted St Mary Magdalen? The judgments of the Pharisees? Or the experience of Christ’s presence, love and truth? How would you have responded to her, if you cannot even embrace a person who has, of all things, decided to attend Mass? Like a Pharisee, or like Christ? He didn’t force it on her. He gave her space to come to Him, and to be moved by the Holy Spirit. The message is in the Gospel for a reason.
ReplyDeleteShawn, I suppose the kings and (male) aristocrats of yore who wore skin-tight leggings; flowing, luxurious robes; long-haired wigs; and high heels; were destroying masculinity.
ReplyDeleteMary Ann, it has been interesting to see you point proved multiple times in one comment thread. Good post, in that regard, I guess.
Pants. A million more important matters to get caught up on and people out here in your comments care about pants. Pathetic.
ReplyDelete