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| FSSP Seminarians banned from celebrating TLM at Ars Basilica! Are we surprised? |
Oh...You thought you were getting an exception and would be allowed to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass wherever you go? How naive, oh foolish ones. We were just stringing you along. Heh! heh! It is so much fun to play the gotcha game with traditional Catholic lepers! Off the bus! Out of the Church! The catacombs for you!
Remember when the pope said this:
That was then; this is now. And I'm betting it is only the beginning of expanded persecution. The Traditional Latin Mass must be eliminated from the face of the earth.
They are no doubt already planning the next nuclear attack on the Mass of the Ages based on the results of "listening sessions" for the Synod on Synodality.
If the past is prologue to the future, the results will be distorted to "prove" that the TLM causes disunity.
It doesn't!
Read this bit from an article at The Federalist (The Latin Mass is the Future of the Catholic Church) explaining why Francis wants to do away with the TLM. I think it is spot on!:
- Francis fears that Catholics who are drawn to the ancient rite are somehow rejecting the reforms the of Second Vatican Council. In another passage, he writes that the effort to expand the Latin rite by both Saint John Paul II and Benedict, “intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.
- Nothing could be further from the truth. Catholics who attend Latin Mass are by all accounts the least likely to encourage disagreements, widen gaps, or reinforce divergences in the church. They are far more likely to adhere to Catholic teaching and accept the obligations the church places on the faithful than Catholics who don’t attend Latin Mass. Indeed, they stand in stark contrast to the nearly 70 percent of American Catholics who deny transubstantiation, and the large majorities who support abortion and gay marriage, and feel no compunction to fulfill their religious obligations.
And remember this: First they came for the diocesan priests and laity who go to the TLM....
The FSSP appears to be in the crosshairs now.
Who's next? What's next?
Excommunication for those who attend the TLM?
I am not sure, but I think some kind of canonical due process is necessary for an excommunication. I don't think it can be done on a whim.
ReplyDeleteThat is true. But Liberals, Modernists and Evolutionists don't follow due process.they ignore what they don't want to do, do whatever they do want to do, and tear down anything they don't want left standing
DeleteI think Francis is the Pope of Whim.
ReplyDeleteHe might be, but the question is whether or not we need consider ourselves constrained should he try that stunt with us.
DeleteEastern Orthodox never bans anyone from saying the traditional liturgy. I guess having a pope is stupid after all.
ReplyDelete“I guess having a Pope is stupid after all”.
DeleteThis sums up the end game of the Vatican cabal and the Francis “papacy”.
Many Catholic bloggers, pundits, writers have expressed these same sentiment, explicitly or tacitly, as though Vatican I never existed.
It’s the literal attempted destruction of the Body of Christ on earth. Do away with the head and the body dies.
We can’t have a one world religion if the romans still have their pope.
This is why the resignation of Benedict needs to be investigated, yesterday!
We have a destroyer sitting on the chair of Peter.
As for shutting down the Latin masses, ALL masses will be stopped at some point. Remember the virus? Just a trial run. Then their blessed fraternity will come up with a mass we can ALL celebrate, all faiths. You know, that blessed syndolity the spirit calls us to!
What TC (Guardians Against Tradition) explicitly contends is that the Tridentine Order of Mass is not compatible with the New Order of Mass - they are not extensions of the same thing, but radically different. By his own words of the document, Bishop of Rome Bergoglio insists on this point, that Summorum Pontificum's logic of continuity and complimentarity is abrogated and replaced by by TC's logic of exclusivity and division.
ReplyDeleteThey are not the same things. We should already know this. Now Bishop of Rome Bergoglio himself affirms it. And he is right on this. And it is important at the most fundamental level.
The Tridentine Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in which we are brought to the foot of the Cross with Mary and John where the bloody sacrifice of the Lamb is re-presented in an un-bloody manner. We face the Cross behind the Priests who leads us there in Personae Christi and receive Our Lord kneeling, on the tongue from Consecrated hands behind a rail that separates us from the Altar of Sacrifice.
The New Mass is a shared meal in which we share a communal table and commemorate in memory the Last Supper, not in any essentially different way than the Protestants, who literally helped create this New Order of Mass as participants in the ecumenical committee that designed it. They face inward toward each other around the table, walk up and receive the Bread from "Extraordinary Ministers" of both sexes, and all ages, at the commemorative meal.
One is a Holy Sacrifice.
The other is a shared meal.
We must fully acknowledge and finally admit the truth of it, which Bishop of Rome Bergoglio himself clearly and fervently insists: *two different Masses*; one must endure, the other must die.
And as the FSSPX's Superior (Fr. Pagliarani) puts it in regards to TC and its (fatal) logic:
"We can point out, quite logically, that the era of the hermeneutics of continuity, with its equivocations, illusions and impossible efforts, is radically over – swept aside with a wave of a sleeve. These clear-cut measures do not directly affect the Society of Saint Pius X. However, they must be an occasion for us to reflect deeply on the situation." He added that "the Tridentine Mass expresses and conveys a conception of Christian life – and consequently, a conception of the Catholic Church – that is absolutely incompatible with the ecclesiology that emerged from the Second Vatican Council." He also stated: "May this 'shock', provoked by the harshness of the official texts of July 16th, serve to renew, deepen and rediscover our attachment to the Tridentine Mass!"
"Incompatible". Once you understand that, then everything else ... including the accelerating persecutions from within ... all falls quickly into place.
Aqua says: "The New Mass is a shared meal in which we share a communal table and commemorate in memory the Last Supper, not in any essentially different way than the Protestants, who literally helped create this New Order of Mass as participants in the ecumenical committee that designed it."
ReplyDeleteBergoglio did not implement these changes, but those before him did.
Mary Ann says: "Excommunication for those who attend the TLM?"
One can only hope so.....
Debbie said: "Bergoglio did not implement these changes, but those before him did".
ReplyDeleteYes. That is precisely my point. Bergoglio is merely bringing the reality to its natural conclusive climax.
As Fr. Pagliarani (SSPX) said (excerpt): "... the Tridentine Mass expresses and conveys a conception of Christian life – and consequently, a conception of the Catholic Church – that is absolutely incompatible with the ecclesiology that emerged from the Second Vatican Council."
TC codifies the end of the "... era of the hermeneutics of continuity, with its equivocations, illusions and impossible efforts; it is radically over" (Pagliarani, excerpt).
What Bergoglio did was merely insist, in his TC, on a reality which we should all accept with him - there are now, after Vatican II, two Masses, two Churches, which cannot coexist in the same space ... one must live, the other die. That is the logic of TC. As far as I'm concerned it is a very good thing, as Fr. Pagliarani puts it in his letter I excerpted above, that the previous deceptions and "equivocations" are now replaced by clear certainty and the stark truth of pure incompatibility, recognized now by both sides (recognized perhaps for the first time by orthodox Catholics with the welcome assist of Bergoglio's TC and its persecutions).
Aqua, I'm not certain what you're saying here. Seems like you're sorta, kinda sede, but not sure.
DeleteBecause I'm simple, I keep it simple. Bergoglio is the logical progression of what the antipopes before him implemented. I think Bergoglio is a mercy from God to wake up good, faithful Catholics.
Debbie,
ReplyDeleteYou're missing the entire point. This is so far beyond Sede arguments. As I have said many times, in many forums, it is legitimate to disagree on who the Pope is, but it is not legitimate to disagree whether the Papacy is the Rock upon which Christ built His Church. There have been controversies within the Papacy before. There is controversy now. I have answered the current question to my satisfaction. So have you. Fine. Moving on.
More importantly, the current controversy now naturally leads us to a crisis of "ecclesiology" as Fr. Pagliarani puts it in my quote, above. Ecclesiology - the study of the nature of the Church itself. "Who are we"?
"... the Tridentine Mass expresses and conveys a conception of Christian life – and consequently, a conception of the Catholic Church – that is absolutely incompatible with the ecclesiology that emerged from the Second Vatican Council". (Fr. Pagliarani)
We have a serious problem, which Arbp LeFebvre recognized - not immediately but in a growing awareness that led to the firmest of convictions that led him to take specific actions as the fruit of those inner convictions ... even at the ultimate cost of excommunication by the Pope himself. He defended orthodoxy and took specific steps to protect and advance orthodoxy within his personal apostolate and sphere of influence. Because he did that, God has given the Church safe harbor when all, in many ways, seems lost. All the seeds of orthodox Catholic life can trace back to Arbp LeFebvre's very practical decision to stand athwart Dogma and Sacred Tradition and defend it with his spiritual life.
THAT is the pattern I choose to follow in my own small way, in my insignificant little corner of life that God has granted me. I have moved beyond the question of the Papacy, disagreements having been previously accepted by my Priest.
Now, given the crisis that is coming to full flower under the deceptively titled Traditionis Custodis, I think it is most important to accept the challenge offered by that revolutionary document, accept its premise, while taking the opposite side, and proclaim that a Catholic should stop being satisfied with dark, dusty, obscure corners of the Church for Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and accept nothing less than the return of the Holy Sacrifice to every Church everywhere on earth. One Mass cannot coexist with the other Mass. We can no longer say that NewMass is the same as the Holy Sacrifice and then accept crumbs by those who truly do understand what is at stake, even if we do not (yet).
One must live, the other die. Why? Bishop of Rome Bergoglio tells us why, in TC. It is because the Ecclesiology that emerged after Vatican II is not compatible with the Ecclesiology of Sacred Tradtion with the Constant Magisterium of the RCC. We took a wrong turn. We must go back. And we can only go back within the Apostolic Line of the Priesthood which still exists, thanks to the faithfulness of Arbp LeFebvre and his spiritual children.
Aqua, you are correct. I missed the entire point of your post. Honestly, I still cannot make heads nor tails of what you are saying. You kinda, sorta sounded like you were possibly embracing the sede position. But as an ardent supporter of the SSPX, that's to be expected.....as they're between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Or really somewhere between SVism and NOism.
DeleteYou say "we took a wrong turn"....well that's exactly what the Prots say. We Catholics know that's impossible exactly because the Papacy is the Rock which Christ built His Church on. So since we KNOW the papacy cannot fail, then how do we explain the VII Church and it's "popes" that have done exactly that? Failed.
I'm sorry I don't understand a position that's so contradictory.
And btw Aqua, Arb. Lefebvre wasn't the only Archbishop to preserve the Apostolic lineage, Abp. Thuc concectsted bishops 12 years before Abp. Lefebvre did.
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng%C3%B4_%C4%90%C3%ACnh_Th%E1%BB%A5c
These days it almost impossible to be safe if you still wear a cassock and read the Latin mass. The ICKSP is learning that well thanks to Francis chief gunso (Chicago term for Al Capone's enforcer, Frank Nitti) Blase Cupich. I think Francis bit off more than he can chew this time, Catholic Family news has declared war on Francis and organizing a march for that declaration. https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/2022/09/09/march-for-catholics-declaration-of-war/ There is also a video Fr. David Hewko made, or rather a sermon, why the heritics have always tried to destroy the Latin mass. Great argument for our side! https://rumble.com/embed/v1h7sdv/?pub=4 BTW if anyone has any extra prayers for Fr. Hewko he can sure use them. He is trying to obtain ideal property for his traditional oratory/seminary. The problem is its a former Catholic monastery. They are refusing the sale because he is SSPX. He is asking for a novena of prayers that the deal goes thru and he can start his oratory. We need new young traditional priests.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you've already seen this, on Marco Tosatti's site - interview of Arbp Viganó. If not ... wow!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.marcotosatti.com/2022/09/14/vigano-to-pax-liturgique-bishops-celebrate-the-mass-of-st-pius-v/
It does seem that TC, as infuriating as it is, might just be nothing more than the last gasp and grasp of a dying experiment in ecclesial heterodoxy. The mask is off the face, we all see them clearly, and what we see now is not good at all.
Debbie said: "You say "we took a wrong turn"....well that's exactly what the Prots say. We Catholics know that's impossible exactly because the Papacy is the Rock which Christ built His Church on. So since we KNOW the papacy cannot fail, then how do we explain the VII Church and it's "popes" that have done exactly that? Failed"
ReplyDeleteAnd? Your solution to this conundrum is ... what? What do you say to those poor souls who need the Sacraments but are not near the few Chapels in this world that still have aged Sede Priests still alive to administer them (and *getting fewer* as most Sede Priests are in their 90's by now)?
SSPX, and those of like-minded goodwill, working to restore Tradition within the wounded Body and suffering Faithful, are acting within the Apostolic Line to restore Sacred Tradition and the saving Gospel of Christ through the valid Sacraments needed for practical sanctification and salvation. The tides are turning, I think - Priests and Bishops see the deviations and rank heresies perhaps for the first time ... change is building toward orthodox fidelity and Sacred Tradition. This is happening, now, within Dioceses - slowly, gradually, but I sense fundamental change in response to these grave and accelerating deviations at the top.
SSPX refer to themselves as "spiritual field medics" in battle. It's messy, deadly and they are in the middle of it saving spiritual lives on behalf of their King who commissioned them to this specific work. I am attracted to the notion that I am part of this Society whose primary purpose is to bring Sacramental life to the suffering and to advance the cause of orthodox dogmatic Catholic faith to the confused and lost.
As far as *your* position, I have nothing really to say. I am well familiar with the Sede position, but it has never been persuasive to me. No Sede can ever define what specific act that disconnected the Papacy from the Apostolic Line, and also which disconnected future Popes, beyond anecdotes and opinions. Sedes claim facts - I see anecdotes. Nor can they explain how an entire world of a billion Catholics is supposed to survive the coming judgement without Sacraments and The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
You say the Church cannot fail ... but your position clearly insists that the Church HAS failed and will continue to fail until the end of time. Too bad for the billions of souls who have no hope.
God bless you in your Catholic pilgrimage to eternity. Truly, *God bless you*! I get how difficult and eternally important the trial is for you, as for us all. I respect you in your search for Truth. As for me and mine, for whom I must give account to Jesus Christ, as I've said before ... I am comfortable in conscience before God.