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Wednesday, July 1, 2015

Laity, Rise Up! Most of Our Bishops Won't and the Clergy are between a Rock and Hard Place!

I remember being outside the Supreme Court the day the Webster decision came down July 3, 1989. I met a young man that day who was about to enter the seminary. He is now a priest in the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C. Recently he published a strong column in his bulletin about how wrong sodomite marriage is. (He didn't use that terminology.) What happened? He got a slap down from the Cardinal. Will he speak out again?
 These priests are in a terrible position. Do they accede to the wishes of their limp-wristed superiors, the men to whom they've promised obedience? Or do they figuratively give them the raspberries and ignore the order?

I don't know the answer, to be honest. Obedience is an important virtue. A seminarian puts his hands between the bishop's on ordination day and promises obedience. If I were this priest, I would be on my knees praying for heavenly guidance through the intercession of the Queen of the Clergy. I would talk to my spiritual director. Then, perhaps, I would make an appointment with the cardinal and speak further to him about it. After all, the bishop cannot order a man to sin, and silence in the face of evil can, indeed, be a sin.

At the same time I would organize holy hours of reparation where I preached on the beauty of true marriage and why the laity must do all they can to uphold it and fight the sham of sodomite "marriage." I would preach about true love encouraging parents to love their children afflicted with same-sex attraction, but never enter into their pretend world pointing out that it's the world of Sodom and Gomorrah where lives and souls are destroyed.

But my heart aches for our good priests. It's one thing to fight the evil without; quite another to see before you both Scylla (outside evil) and Charybdis (inside evil) ready to smash you to bits between them. The laity can fight without worrying too much about being threatened and punished by the bishop. Not so our priests. I still mourn for my dear friend, Fr. James Haley for exposing the homosexual problem in our diocese.  Remember what Bishop Loverde said to him, -- "You have no idea what I can do to you." And then he did it.

Today I'm offering my rosary for good and faithful priests who suffer under weak and bad bishops. Unfortunately, the Church is full of them as many current events show. But there are also bishops who are stepping up to the plate in this crisis and at least speaking loudly. Now if they will only get out the big stick to go with their words. A little interdiction is in order...especially for Anthony Kennedy and Sonia Sotomayor whose gravely evil decision imperils their eternal salvation. Will their parish priests and diocesan bishops have the courage to tell them so?


Anonymous said...

Yesterday, when the Reading was about the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah my pastor used a different Reading and Psalm at the morning Mass. It had to be purposeful. We are in NY. Our Grand Marshall Shepherd has not opened his otherwise BIG mouth about the SCOTUS decision. In my opinion, he is sending the message to his priests. Whoever calls attention to homosexuality, will incur the big guy's wrath. Don't anybody endanger our tax-free status. What if the big $$$ gifts from gays and parents of gays stops flowing.

I will ask my pastor when I see him if he deliberately avoided the Genesis reading. And why? If it is out of fear of offending the homosexuals, then he has to know that I was offended for Christ and his bride, the Church. There really is no pleasing everyone. The Church is burning down right before our eyes and our priests refuse to yell fire or even admit the smell of smoke?

I will not be happy to have this discussion with my pastor. I like him very much and he generally stays within the lines of tradition. Say a prayer for me that I will "rise up" in a way that is full of grace.

Anonymous said...

Your article, MaryAnn, is the sober truth. We have a courageous young priest who Told The Truth during his homily on Sunday. We pray for his protection, strength and fortitude ---and that the Bishop of Tucson will not punish him. He is indeed, a holy priest who begs his flock to uphold the truth of the Catholic Church. No truth came from SCOTUS.

Cate (from Facebook)

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

Anon. 11:04, your conversation with your pastor will be an intention for my rosary today. I've had enough of those uncomfortable conversations to know exactly what you are talking about. Mary, Queen of the Clergy, give us all wisdom and charity in speaking the truth to our shepherds.

Carol said...

As I say my Rosary for priests today, I’m remembering what Father Joseph O’Connor said in 1990, "When I made my vow of obedience 40 years ago, it was first and foremost to Jesus Christ, His Mother and St. Dominic and in obedience to them only death will silence my witnessing to the Truth."

newguy40 said...

As I've mentioned a number of times, I attend Mass with a large number of tourists that come to this seaside town during the summer. The shrine is run by a men's religious. The provincial is a good man but not very... I dont' want to say he isn't holy. He is a solid "manager" and he is very aware of getting more folks to visit the shrine. He mentioned nothing in his homily about the SCOTUS decision and my wife and son were not surprised. I think there is a real desire to get butt's in the pews and money in the basket now. The previous provincial was a much more vocal and courageous man who's homilies were full of catechism. He often spoke out on abortion, Islam and marriage.

Like Mary Ann I've had some very uncomfortable conversations with priests over the years. At one point a former pastor would introduce me as "..the guy who has a copy of the CCC and Redemptionis Sacramentum on his book shelf." Used to PO my wife but I loved it.

I keep hoping and praying that the FSSP would take over a parish nearby.

TMABlok said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TMABlok said...

There is such thing as false obedience.We answer to God,not man.We will be judged according to how much we obeyed His laws.If one's superior is demanding silence on sinful issues,then we have the duty to resist.We can sin by omission.Truth has to be delivered with charity of course,but it did loose St Thomas Moore's head too.We have to have a daily grind of virtue in our spiritual lives in the small things in order to be able to stand up for the big issues.

Anonymous said...

Even though California is mostly a Sodom in many places, I am blessed enough to have Catholic churches in my area that serve both the ordinary and extraordinary Masses in an orthodox manner, although there are dissenting members in many of our churches. One shrine has an older Jesuit priest who speaks out all the time for traditional marriage and explains from the Bible, the catechism and Tradition why it is Christian teaching. He did so last Sunday, too. God bless him.

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Mary Ann, you don't think there is something wrong with a lay person with no authority in the Church - and one who is not even allowed to label his organization "Catholic" - to call for the ouster of the bishops, without whom we have no priests and no sacraments? Destroy the bishops, and you destroy the Church.

You know as well as I do that the spiritual state of a bishop or priest has nothing to do with his ability to confer the sacraments. God works through sinners as well as saints. There have always been problems with the leadership of the Church starting with Peter and the first apostles. Certainly Judas was a big problem. But at no time did Our Lord say it was time to "throw the bums out."

There are times when bishops must be disciplined. However it is the job of Holy Mother Church to make that decision, not the laity. Martin Luther thought he had the right to reject the authority of the Church, and look what it got him.

I'm sorry, Mary Ann. But you scare me, right along with your hero, Michael Voris. I find it interesting that in a prior post in your litany of what makes a good priest, you do not include loyalty to the Holy Father and the Church.

I know you're friends with Voris and that you contribute to his organization, having appeared on his program and posting articles on his website. I really believe you need to seriously reconsider that. It seems to me that Voris, you and all who think like you are way overstepping your authority. The Holy Spirit, and not Michael Voris, guides the Church. Thank God for that.

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

I had to laugh when I read this comment, Mary. I don't claim to have any authority at all. I can't confer the sacraments or mess around with the liturgy or scandalize from the pulpit. I can't name or discipline a bishop or vote for the next pope. Exactly what authority do you think I'm exercising?

What I can do, however, is proclaim the truth as it is written in Scripture and the doctrine of the Church and blow the warning trumpet which includes warning the faithful against hirelings in the Church who lead them down the primrose path toward Gehenna. Frankly, I think that is a noble calling.

As for Mike Voris being "my hero," that made me laugh too. I'll be watching for a future Vortex when he rips open his shirt to show his superhero costume underneath.

I do respect Mike Voris and his team even though I frequently disagree with them. I have publicly criticized him on my blog and they have been humble enough to still want me to contribute to their site because, I presume, I have long experience in fighting for the truth on so many fronts: pro-life, NFP, education, marriage preparation, etc.

The priest who witnessed my husband'a and my marriage in 1969 told us that historically the laity always rejuvenate the Church when things are going badly. We are NOT overstepping our bounds when we exhort our shepherds to act like shepherds. Fr. John Hardon, one of the holiest priests I've ever known told many laity fighting for the faith to continue. Have you ever read Donna Steichen's book Ungodly Rage about feminism in the Church? She's my hero and I consider her the godmother of Les Femmes.

You know waht scares me, Mary? Laity who think blind obedience is a virtue, affirm clericalism, and condemn other Christians for not imitating their style of witness. I won't condemn your approach, but I sure won't change mine to please you, because you don't have any authority in the Church either and I sure don't owe you obedience.

But since I do "scare" you, I hope that means you pray for me. I will certainly pray for you. I'll be on a five day silent Ignatian retreat next week and will pray for you every day at Mass and when I say my rosary.

Carlos said...

In the history of the Church all heresies began with a disobedient priest. I cannot recall one important heresy started by a layman. But if I remember well, in many occasions the people of God saved he day by supporting true doctrine.

I was asked once to go through a State police background check in order to teach Catechism for adults for just a month or so. The powers that be in that parish also asked me to go through some course (VIRTUS) although the classes were conducted in the open.

I remember asking why - if all the transgressors were priests up to that point - I had to go through such obviously unnecessary check. The background check came, and I was found to be a fine citizen. I did not stay there long enough to go through VIRTUS but the question remains: You men of the cloth admit the perverts among you and we the normal lay males have to go through this kind of humiliating treatment?

Something is wrong under the berretta and I have nothing to do with it.

Alexis Bugnolo said...

If a priest is silent about any point of the Faith necessary for salvation (esp in times of grave scandal as we are presently in the USA) in the face of threats by his Bishop who is a heretic or gravely immoral, he will without a doubt be cast into Hell by the Lord in the hour of his death, because he is first and always and only to be the priest of Jesus Christ, not the priest of his Bishop.

What help can the faithful expect, if their priest does not even know what it means to be a Christian?

boinky said...

Facebook has bragged that 20 million people replaced their photos with the gay flag.

I just replace mine with Matthew 19:5

tell your readers to do the same.

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Exhorting our shepherts to act like shepherds is one thing. But attacking them and demanding that they be thrown out is something else altogether. That is just wrong We as laity have no right to make these judgments.

How does the laity rejuvante the Church? Do we do it by attacking our shepherds and demanding they be throw out as Michael Voris doe? No Mary Ann, that can never be right. The Church is not a democracy where we decide who is in authority. Our shepherds are chosen by the Holy Spirit, and if those in authority go astray, He will take care of it. Our Lady of Fatima told us to pray for sinners, not attack them.

If you had walked with Christ during his time on earth, and you had become aware of Judas' betrayal, would you have publicly demanded his ouster? Would you have publicly attacked him? Then you would have been going against Our Lord Himself. Jesus knew exactly what Judas was doing. Yet He allowed it. Jesus Christ saw the whole picture in a way that we never can.

We need to remember that as human beings we have very limited sight and understanding. We see only part of the picture. That is why Our Lord told us not to judge. Certainly there are times when bishops and priests ned to be diciplined and even removed from their posts. But as I said, that is not our decision but that of Holy Mother Church, and certainly not Michael Voris.

Holy Mother Church is now an enemy of our country because she will not capitulate to the godless agenda that is now in place, and our priests and bishops are on the front line. In the future, I truly do expect to see leaders of our Church put in jail and churches shut down. We need to be united with one another, not pointing fingers and accusing.

I certainly do appreciate that you will be praying for me, Mary Ann. I can certainly use those prayers, and I will pray for you also. I believe you want to do what is right, and that is why I keep coming back here. But following Michael Voris and his divisive ways is not the right path.

Michael Dowd said...

I believe the action we should take now is prayer and study along with our blogging. Mostly it is commiseration time. Thinking time. Planning time. Listening time. Orthodox Catholic leadership among the clergy is missing in action and talking climate change when we are facing catastrophic cultural collapse with issues such SCOTUS approval of gay marriage. I believe times are worse now than at the time of Luther. We need God to intervene. Let us pray that He does soon.

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

And if you had lived in the time of Christ, Mary, would you have found John the Baptist "divisive" and admonished him for calling the clergy of his day a "brood of vipers?"

Thanks for the prayers.

Michael Dowd said...

Catholic in Brooklyn

"Holy Mother Church is now an enemy of our country because she will not capitulate to the godless agenda that is now in place, and our priests and bishops are on the front line. In the future, I truly do expect to see leaders of our Church put in jail and churches shut down. We need to be united with one another, not pointing fingers and accusing."

You must be kidding. Clergy capitulation has been the name of the game since Vatican II, e.g., contraception, support for pro-abortion politicians, weak on fighting gay marriage, and now we have the urber political Pope Francis who has never seen a communist he doesn't like, etc.
And it is doubtful any clergy is going to jail anytime soon. If anything it will be folks like Michael Voris who will be behind bars having been condemned by the local bishop. Now we have dear Pope Francis making happy with atheist One Worlders on the non Church issue of climate change. It is the poor laity who are the victims not the clergy. These are the folks you should add to your prayers.

Anonymous said...

They can't keep us all silent. I will speak from the pulpit and write in my bulletin no matter what the powers at be say. Luckily, I have one of the good guys for a bishop. But, who knows the future. I will not go down in silence. Men like Wuerl will have to make a decision. The time is now at hand. "Either you are for me or against me."

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Mary Ann - that is not really answering my question, nor acknowledging anything else I wrote. John the Baptist was completely submissive to the Will of the Holy Spirit, and he had been given a divine command to do what he was doing. Can we say the same thing when we attack our prelates? I really doubt that Michael Voris has been given a divine command to attack the prelates of the Church, condemning them to hell.

I will pray for you on your retreat that you, too, will find the Will of the Holy Spirit in your life.

Anonymous said...

In the Raleigh, North Carolina diocese, our "church of nice" bishop (most likely the vicar general, though), removed ALL faculties from a young, dynamic, bold, and holy priest before he completed his 1st year of ministry(!), other than celebrating mass, but the homily had to be given by someone else. Why, you may ask? First, because he was assigned to a "church of nice" parish and all the problems with the "church of nice" laity. He preached bravely and fearlessly about sin. In his first year, the lines for confession were always the longest in the church. Not only that, he offered confessions daily before the 8 a.m. mass, Wednesdays at noon (working professionals had priority), and after every mass he celebrated. Second, he had the names of a sizable number of priests in that diocese that are actively homosexual, closeted gays, sympathetic to gays, or tolerant of the gay lifestyle. Finally, the "church of nice" parishioners complained continuously to the pastor, the vicar general, and the bishop. As soon as the following year's assignments were announced, this young priest was blacklisted. He will never preach, teach, or administer the sacraments again unless he decides to accommodate the "church of nice," which he won't do, and so he remains blacklisted. In the diocesan roles, he's considered "retired" (but without faculties), and yet (here's the hypocrisy), he's considered a "priest in good standing."

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

Mary, I could spend every minute of my day responding to you. I've seen your blog and the dissertations you write on every comment left (not lately, I stopped going to your blog months ago). I'm finished answering your comments. You're not my spiritual director. Let's agree to disagree.

TLM said...

That is exactly right Anonymous @11:10......Decision time is here NOW. No more fence sitting. Seems to me it is the beginning of the 'separation between the sheep and the goats.' God is now forcing our hand. I had my first confrontation today myself with someone who was 'happy that these people can finally 'marry' who they love.' I silently said a prayer and I think I did pretty good without getting angry or uncharitable at all. Just pointed out facts of God's law and how much heartache this twisting of it will bring to the culture. Person got kind of huffy of course, but I pray they might reconsider. Maybe I planted a seed? I may loose some friends and family over this but ....rather that than capitulate with evil and loose my own immortal soul, is the way I see it, anyway. Some of us may end up kind of lonely, isolated and marginalized but Jesus did tell us to expect it if we were truly to follow Him. Heck, some of us may loose jobs, homes, and even our very lives over this, but we will NEVER regret standing strong for the the King of Kings, and His Church.

DJR said...

Catholic in Brooklyn said..."How does the laity rejuvante the Church? Do we do it by attacking our shepherds and demanding they be throw out as Michael Voris doe?"

The answer to both questions is yes.

It was a layman who stood up during Nestorius' sermon in Constantinople in the 5th century in order to denounce Nestorius as a blatant heretic.

The history of the Catholic Church is replete with laymen publicly confronting erring clerics.

We have had fornicating popes, popes publicly preaching heresy, popes and bishops buying and selling their offices, priests living in open concubinage.

Our Lord never once stated that lay Catholics had to be silent about any of that, nor did He say that we just need to pray. Rather, He expects the laity, those with the competence to do so, to speak out in the face of evil.

"Our shepherds are chosen by the Holy Spirit..."

The Catholic Church has no such teaching. In fact, that statement is demonstrably false.

In the U.S. alone, we have had numerous homosexual bishops. Archbishop Weakland has publicly admitted to being a homosexual. Did the Holy Spirit choose a practicing homosexual to be the ordinary of Milwaukee?

On February 2, 1961, the Holy See promulgated a document entitled "Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders," signed by Pope Saint John XXIII.

The relevant section had one sentence on homosexuality: "Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with the evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious danger."

That was promulgated by a pope.

If the Holy Ghost chooses our shepherds, that means the Holy Ghost would be in direct contradiction to the rule set down by Saint John XXIII and, instead, He in some instances chose blatant homosexuals as our shepherds even though they were forbidden by the pope to even be ordained as priests in the first place.

A rather preposterous notion.

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

Thank you for that wealth of historical information, DJR.

And here's the answer of Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XV) when he was asked in an interview in 1997 on Bavarian TV if the Holy Spirit chooses the pope:

"I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined. There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!"

Anonymous said...

Anon. 11:04 here.

This morning I asked my pastor if he dropped the Sodom & Gomorrah reading on Tuesday because of the SCOTUS decision. He told me he was celebrating the optional memorial of the Martyrs of Rome. So I was wrong when I jumped to the conclusion that he deliberately was trying to avoid the message of that reading. I'm sorry we didn't have more time to continue talking but Father had to run. Even though I asked in a gentle way, the question did put Father on the defensive. Oh well. We all are living in if-you-see-something-say-something times; let's hope we can do it with grace and courage.

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

It was a good question. At our parish we also celebrated the optional memorial, but Father used the readings from the day so we had the Sodom and Gomorrah reading. Your conclusion may have been completely on target which may explain Father's defensiveness.

Anonymous said...

MaryAnn, I am watching Michael Voris and having been the laywoman who wrote to Bishops and spoke with more than several face to face , along with having quite a personal chat with one very decent Cardinal ( now deceased), I have to say that I am really applauding the fact that the reality of the homosexual clerical cabals in the Church is becoming widely more available to those who want to know and care.
For twenty five years now , I and my family endured being called every hateful name by alleged "catholic" friends and extended family relatives. Why? Because I told the truth. Mr Voris stated that a high ranking cleric in Rome admitted to him they are aware of the existance of homosexual clerical cliques, but do not know how they operate. Wrong! They do know how they operate and are too frightened to confront this satanic activity head on.The reply most often posed to chaste Faithful priests by their Bishops when they complain is this, "Show me the proof" and when they do ,they are the ones suspended and / or blackballed!
These Faithful priests are the ones that Voris should be interviewing so that they can publicly air their positions and inform the Catholic laity where they stand now. The alleged priest shortage has been a deep dark lie that is so bad that we know here where many have even gone to work outside the Church! Toll collectors on a public bridge between two states.
Malachi Martin personally told me 20 years ago that he financially helped forty good priests who stood for orthodox teaching and were placed in a position of limbo by a now prominent Cardinal who once was the Bishop of Pittsburgh. They KNOW! Protecting the image while fostering their agenda has been the modus operandi for a good part of the last century.
"Turn on the lights and watch the cockroaches run" a famous priest once said to me, "Saturate them with the Truth of Scriptural Doctrine and Dogma of the Word Made Flesh!"
Who placed the "Disordered" Spiritual Directors , Seminary Rectors and Diocesan Vocation Directors into their positions of authority? Certainly not the Holy Ghost!

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

"Faithful priests by their Bishops when they complain is this, "Show me the proof" and when they do ,they are the ones suspended and / or blackballed!"

That's exactly what happened to Fr. James Haley and is the reason why I started a blog about his persecution.

Where is Fr. Haley now? He lives in a motor home and picks up odd jobs. But his health (as well as his faith) has really been impacted and he is struggling physically and financially. I spoke to him about a month ago and he said he has been in such pain that he spends a lot of time in bed. All this because he provided "the proof" about the homosexual pornography in the rectories and reported on the "boyfriends" visiting pastors he lived with. One continues to be a pastor in the diocese. Another (Fr. Haley didn't live with him, but he was instrumental in destroying the vocation of another priest I know.) has since died.

We didn't get to last week's Supreme Court decision from nowhere. Bad catechesis from bad priests was a contributing factor followed by the sinful decisions of the laity. Which reminds me of that saying (anonymous attribution):

If the priest is a saint, his people will be holy.
If the priest is holy, his people will be good.
If the priest is good, his people will be fair.
If the priest is fair, his people will be mediocre.
If the priest is mediocre, his people will be bad.

I add one further. "If the priest is bad, his people will be diabolical."

Pray for priests! Visit this website often to pray for priests.;id=38;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eprayersforpriests%2Ecom%2F

Anonymous said...

MaryAnn, I would like you and your readers to read the testimony of this Irish Cardinal. Please note that he admits in court proceedings that the protection of the "Image" of the church, rather than the souls and bodies of the Faithful members of the Church, were paramount coming from the CDF itself.

If Churchmilitant is to be honest, they know this too.The majority PC political image amongst the catholic laity appears to be one of the pro homosexual agenda as they even admitted on their churchmilitant internet productions.
Why haven't they spent time counteracting these Bishops who persecute decent priests rather than just advising letter writing campaigns to the laity?
As I personally told Fr Hardon some years back in VA when he suggested contacting our Bishops with letters regarding the proposed controls over home schoolers by one Sr Dudick in Pittsburgh , "With all due respect Father Hardon many of us here from states across the nation did just that when concerned about the disgusting sex ed programs that were introduced in the Parochial schools." Cardinal Bevilaqua decided to "return to sender" envelopes from anyone whom was on his Chancery lists as a "dissenter" from his directives. Fr Hardon could not counter he just put his head down, acknowledging this was all true.

It is way past time to air the entire Truth concerning the persecution of the Faithful orthodox priests, parents and laity who have already expressed their concerns over decades all to no avail and not just recommend the same old same old ,"Write a letter to your Bishop ".
Voris should AIR the actions of Bishops in response to faithful clerics and laity who have come to them with their righteous concerns!
Rather than being left to whither and die in silence in a trailer, find work outside their vocations which OUR donations paid for ,or leave the priesthood like Fr Hoatson and countless others have done .
The Bishop's BIG LIE about a "priest shortage" should be exposed! How many parishes are being closed and merged under this false banner?

I was raised in Catholic schools by good Catholic parents and nuns and I clearly recall the Catechism lessons that we all learned rote about rightful authority and subsidiarity. The ONLY reason to not fulfill a directive from either parent or priest was if that request involved committing a sinful act against God's Laws.
Last time I looked at the Bible, theft,lies,fornication ,adultery and sodomy were all sins against God's laws.The latter one listed amongst those that cry out to heaven for God's vengeance. Letter writing campaigns rarely influence Bishops, exposing the truth in their actions and cutting off donated income does. The are looking at the same polls and playing up to what is reported as the majority.
The sad tales in the news about alleged LGBT "discrimination" has gotten them where they are so how about the true stories involving good priests and lay persons?

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Mary Ann - You are probably on your retreat now, and I wish you well. I have not looked at this since last week, and so only now see your response. I do appreciate that even though you vehemently disagree with me, you do allow me to comment on your blog, which many others don't do. As I have previously told you, I admire you greatly as a person, and that is why I keep coming back to your blog.

I do not understand how you can continue to defend your actions towards the hierarchy of the Church. You do not even attempt to answer me because you know you cannot. I was once in total agreement with you so I know where you are coming from. I realize now that it is not my duty to decide the direction of the Church or to stand in judgment of those whom the Holy Spirit has put in charge. Your posts and statements seem to reflect that you feel you do have the right to judge and condemn. That is our disagreement, and I think it is profound.

How can you defend this statement from one of those who commented above:

"Catholic in Brooklyn said..."How does the laity rejuvenate the Church? Do we do it by attacking our shepherds and demanding they be thrown out as Michael Voris does?"

The answer to both questions is yes."

That is very, very sad, and certainly not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

I haven't left for the retreat yet, Mary, so I'll respond briefly. I'm in the middle of packing.

Yes, we not only have a right, but a duty, to attack the evil ACTIONS of our shepherds. Martin Luther's parishioners would have been justified in doing so. Cardinal Pierre Cauchon's people would have been justified in doing so. The same with the sheep of Nestorius, Arius, and other heretics. In fact, they had a moral obligation to condemn and refuse obedience to such shepherds. It arises from our obligation to defend the faith both from enemies within and from without the Church. Frankly, I don't understand your reluctance to do it. Your attitude borders on quietism which has been condemned by the Church.

I don't always agree with Michael's approach to criticizing. He can be uncharitable in an excess of zeal. (Can't we all?) But he acts like a man defending his family and, in a world of wimps and wooses, frankly, I find that refreshing.

As for my "not even attempt(ing) to answer me because you know you cannot," that's ridiculous and I think you know it. I've answered you many times. You simply are so deaf to anyone's voice (and opinion) but your own, that you don't hear it. And you judge and judge and judge while criticizing others for judging. And that's the crux of our disagreement. I find it hypocritical. You have certainly judged me and my actions many times.

I have to confess I have a sense of freedom to think I won't see a single one of your comments for five whole days! LOL! But when I return perhaps the message I will have received on retreat is to never respond to your comments again. We'll see.

newguy40 said...

"I do not understand how you can continue to defend your actions towards the hierarchy of the Church."

"Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

(St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice. II.29.)

This is essentially Mary Ann's position which I support and agree with completely.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who is struggling with the question of Catholocism and homosexuality.
There is a wealth of documented research here.